第151期
【AMA】闪电网络三巨头首次聚齐,质疑与夸奖,我们照单全收!

嘉宾 Samson Mow,Pierre-Marie,Alex Bosworth

关于闪电网络:随着用户量和普及度的增加,比特币每秒7笔的交易已经无法满足用户需求,闪电网络因此诞生。这是一种“Layer 2”(二层)支付协议,搭建在比特币区块链上。有了闪电网络之后,我们不需要在区块链上记录每笔交易。用户可以在基于比特币区块链的这一层互相建立支付通道,自由地进行交易。一旦双方的交易确定结束,就可以关闭通道,将…

已结束 参与人数:152

关于闪电网络:


随着用户量和普及度的增加,比特币每秒7笔的交易已经无法满足用户需求,闪电网络因此诞生。这是一种“Layer 2”(二层)支付协议,搭建在比特币区块链上。有了闪电网络之后,我们不需要在区块链上记录每笔交易。用户可以在基于比特币区块链的这一层互相建立支付通道,自由地进行交易。一旦双方的交易确定结束,就可以关闭通道,将最终的交易状态记录到比特币区块链上。

 

闪电网络大大减少了比特币主网的压力,同时也提高了比特币交易的速度与效率,交易费用也大大降低。由于大部分交易都在链下进行,闪电网络也带来了一定的匿名性,确保了交易的安全。

 

然而,创新事物的发展总是伴随着争议。尽管闪电网络已经运行几年时间了,但尚未全面投入使用,还有很多未知和不确定性。也有人质疑闪电网络的复杂性,普通用户很难正常操作,甚至出现了一些丢币的情况,因此需要节点的帮助。但随着特定节点资金数量的增加,可能会导致中心化问题。另外,闪电网络的通道存在上限。两个用户在建立通道时,存储在钱包中的比特币数量就是该通道中的最大资金数。

 

嘉宾简介:

 

缪永权(Samson Mow)是Blockstream(c-lightning开发团队)的首席战略官(Chief Strategy Officer),主要负责拓展国际市场,市场战略,以及产品开发。

缪永权除了在比特币行业拥有很大的影响力,他也是游戏业界资深人士和企业家,在发展创业公司的以及管理大型开发团队上都有着丰富的经验。在2011年,他以“通过游戏来激发世界各地人们的想象力”为理念创立了Pixelmatic。公司把焦点放在创作真正优秀的社交游戏,更多地鼓励玩家们利用社交网络更多地联系。

 

 

Pierre-Marie是ACINQ(éclair开发团队)的CEO。

他对科技和创业都充满热情。他认为自己非常幸运,有机会为比特币这样的重大创新打造有意义的产品和服务。


 Alex Bosworth是Lightning Labs的闪电网络基础架构负责人,同时是Yalls.org的首席执行官。他曾在芝加哥大学学习经济学,后来开始从事软件开发。从企业开源软件部署开始,Alex于2007年在北京联合创办了一家独立的软件工作室。2016年回到美国后,Alex进入比特币行业,负责后端交易API,并为英国皇家铸币局开发了一个区块链项目。


AMA时间:

 

3月26日,周四下午3点。

 

闪电网络如何自证安全?

何时能大规模投入使用?

如何保证去中心化?

比特币上也能搞DeFi吗?

闪电网络失去了比特币杀手级应用的地位?

 

闪电网络三巨头c-lightning,éclair和Lightning Labs 开发团队首次聚齐,无论你想夸还是想骂,他们都照单全收!欢迎来聊!

 

提问有奖:


在AMA 中提问用户,即有资格参与风中锦鲤抽奖,康康你是不是那只幸运锦鲤,快来提问测欧气吧!



如何参与AMA?

 

在本主题帖下直接回帖提问即可参与,嘉宾将在活动开始后上线回答,欢迎大家围观讨论!

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  • 一枚小汤圆a 管理员 发表于2020-03-30 15:48:28

    【风中锦鲤获奖名单】闪电网络AMA

    恭喜
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    注:1.请以上5位获奖用户于2020年4月1日上午12点前添加 链节点小助手(VX:ljdwudi5520),添加时请备注链节点用户名+风中锦鲤 领奖,以便工作人员核查,加上后请提供姓名+电话+地址给小助手,过期未收到信息视为放弃奖励,谢谢配合!

    链节点小助手二维码


  • xiaoxiaege 船员 发表于2020-03-18 17:18:11
    您好!请问Pierre-Marie和Alex Bosworth:
    1、闪电网络发展的主要缺陷是什么?是否可以解决?
    2、闪电网络内的比特币数量增长几乎陷入了停滞,已经持续了很长时间。网络内币数量不能较大增长的原因是什么?
    3、有人认为闪电网络的致命性问题主要还是出在它本身难用,需要把币锁死在通道里面,而且大部分的支付网络又是单向的,即使交易所跟支付网关之间也是总体单向,资金大部分从交易所流向支付网关,然后短时间就耗尽通道里的BTC,而每次清算都意味着开关一次通道,这会增加交易手续费,从而降低商户采用闪电网络的意愿。你们认为这种观点有道理吗?
    4、预计闪电网络什么时候可以大规模使用?目前阻碍闪电网络进入大规模使用的主要因素有哪些?
    5、闪电网络能否解决比特币可能出现的拥堵问题?
    6、闪电网络是去中心化的吗,如果大部分节点都连在少数几个超级中心上,转账要通过少数几个超级节点,是否有可能要受到政府审查?
    7、首个闪电网络DEX Sparkswap在3月17日宣布关闭,创始人Trey Griffith说用户数量不足是公司维持不下去的原因。你们是否也遇到类似困难?
    感谢。

    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:10:30
    Alex Bosworth

    1. 在闪电网络中,节点必须在正确的方向上投入足够的资金。如果他们不这样做,付款将失败。要解决这一问题,必须建立一个市场来激励资本配置,并建立工具来使资本更容易正确配置。这些解决方案中的一些可以添加到协议中,其他的可能是产品和服务,比如我在Lightning Labs工作的Lightning Loop项目,它提供了一种非托管方法来调整渠道的流动性,以对市场状况作出反应。

    要想将闪电网络作为一个可扩展的解决方案并推动其发展,必须有足够的需求来转移资金以证明额外的复杂性。目前,区块链的本地代币移动方法非常有效,而SegWit等其他改进也减轻了很大的压力。通过计时我的链上交易,并使用SegWit和闪电网络,我很少支付超过0.01美元的手续费在链上交易上。

    Lightning协议的设计并不是要一成不变的,它确实需要额外的计划变更来解决各种缺陷。问题需要研究,解决方案需要尝试,所以最大的问题可能尚未可知。


    2. 闪电资本配置增速不如以往,有多种原因。主要原因是,过去某个人自己增加了那么多资金,使其他人都黯然失色,所以即使其他人在增加资金,他们增加的数额也隐藏在一个人的背后。

    另一个增长缓慢的原因是,为了安全起见,有一些协议限制阻止人们增加资金。随着软件的成熟,这些安全限制可以放宽,但到目前为止,LND还没有放宽任何安全限制。

    资金增长不是这个体系的目标。实际上,我们希望网络中的资本尽可能少,因为资本越多,风险就越大。增加了许多技术改进,以更少的资金分配来增加发送量。

    我在Lightning实验室工作的Lightning Loop项目实际上是为了帮助从闪电网络中移除资金。允许资金在渠道中堆积的商家希望将资金从高风险的闪电节点中取出,放入低风险的冷钱包中,而Lightning Loop是一项有助于这种转移的服务。

    最后,闪电中的资本配置必须通过市场过程有机地增长。直接投资网络而不研究资金需要的地方,这会导致总资金上升,而这种资本不会对网络或投资者有用。投入的资金必须放在需要的地方,找出资金需要的主要途径是先尝试有限的资金,然后在用的地方增加,不用的地方减少。


    3. 闪电网络不是设计为一个用户友好型的应用程序,而是设计为一个隐私保护、快速和可扩展的转账协议。如果有简单的方法来使用它,那将会很好,但是这是一个与协议本身不同的问题,协议本身的设计通常只是为了转移资金。闪电协议是为那些需要支付便宜、私秘、快速或以上所有要求的人而设计的。

    闪电上的流量绝对是高度单向的,这反映了一个小型网络的现实,在这个网络中,接收者可能不一定有一个接收地址来发送在接收到它们之后的资金。随着网络的发展,接收者将有更多的理由将他们收到的资金发回网络。而且,即使是在一个单一的方向上,支付的总和仍然可以是一个巨大的储蓄。如果您在yalls.org上购买文章并使用最大协议限制通道,即使流量完全在一个方向,您也可以执行超过100000个交易在您返回区块链并使用另一个通道打开交易。


    4. 我不知道什么时候我们会看到大规模采用,这将是一个伟大的项目成果,但它取决于市场采用,所以暂时是不可预测的。

    有许多障碍,但采用的主要驱动力将是市场需求。如果使用闪电网络或开发闪电网络有好处的话,那么更多的人会使用或开发闪电网络。找出这些商业模式和效率是市场的工作,这需要投资和反复的试验。


    5. 不,闪电网络不能完全替代区块链。如果您认为链空间的充分利用是一个问题,那么闪电网络无法解决这个问题,因为它不能取代区块链的所有功能,因此它不能取代区块链的所有流量。

    相反,闪电网络可以作为区块链的替代品,用于交易人员可以接受其差异的交易类型。因此,如果你想转移一小部分,而用区块链太昂贵,你可以在闪电网络上转移相同数量的比特币,并支付较低的费用。


    6. 闪电网络是一个互操作性的协议,因此它可以是中心化的,也可以是去中心化的,这取决于人们如何使用该协议。您可以使用该协议设置一个中心化的“intranet”闪电网络,以便在已知实体之间交换资金,这些实体可以与政府合作。您可以使用该协议与未知的人进行交互,并让这些人以保护隐私的方式运行其节点来避免与政府合作。因为该协议只描述了对等点之间交互的方式,所以它并不决定使用情况如何,这取决于运行该软件的人员。


    7.我认识Trey Griffith,在他创办公司之前和他谈过他的项目,我认为他在探索空间方面做得很好,但不是每一次探索都能得到结果,即使探索做得很完美。

    有了Lightning Labs和Lightning Loop,但我们还没有达到大规模采用的目标,为了让我们成长为大规模采用,我们需要从一开始就开始,并保持增长,常言道“一口吃不成胖子”。我们的网络和软件的使用确实在继续增长。我们准备好了,这个增长和发展需要时间,现在市场肯定还很小。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复xiaoxiaege 发表于2020-03-27 11:10:21 嘉宾
    1. In Lightning, network nodes must commit sufficient capital in the correct directions. If they do not, payments will fail. This can only be solved by building a market to incentivize capital deployment and building tools to make it easier to deploy capital correctly. Some of these solutions can be added to the protocol and others may be products and services, like the Lightning Loop project that I work on at Lightning Labs that offers a non-custodial method to adjust the liquidity on your channels to react to market conditions.
    For Lightning to be needed as a scaling solution and drive development on it, there must be sufficient demand to move money around to justify the additional complexity. Currently the Blockchain's native methods of moving coins works very well and other scaling improvements like SegWit have taken a lot of the pressure off. By timing my on-chain transactions and using SegWit and the Lightning Network, I rarely pay more than $0.01 for an on-chain transaction.
    The Lightning protocol was not designed in a way for it to be set in stone and it does require additional planned changes to address various deficiencies. Problems need to be studied and solutions tried, so the biggest issues may yet be unknown.

    2. There are multiple reasons for the capital allocation in Lightning not growing as quickly as before. The main reason is that in the past there was one person who added so much capital by themselves that they overshadowed everyone else, so even though others were adding capital the amount that they added was hidden behind one person.
    Another reason growth has been slow is that there are protocol limits that prevent people from adding capital, as a safety precaution. As the software matures, these safety limits can be relaxed, but so far LND has not relaxed any of the safety limits.
    Capital growth is not a goal of the system. In fact we want to have as little capital in the network as possible, because more capital means more risk. A lot of technical improvements have been added to allow for sending volume but with less capital allocated.
    The Lightning Loop project that I work on at Lightning Labs is actually designed to help remove capital from the Lightning network. Merchants who allow capital to stack up in their channels want to get that capital out of their higher-risk Lightning nodes and into their lower-risk cold wallets, and Lightning Loop is a service that facilitates that transfer.
    Finally, capital allocation in Lightning must grow organically through a market process. Direct investment in the network without studying where capital is needed will result in the total capital going up, but this capital will not be useful to the network or the investor. Capital invested must be put where it is needed, and the main way to figure out where capital is needed is to try a limited amount of capital first and then increase it where it is being used and decrease it where it is not being used.

    3. Lightning was not designed to be a user-friendly application, it was designed as a privacy-preserving, fast and scalable protocol to transfer money. It would be great if there were easy ways to use it but that is a separate problem from the protocol itself which is designed more generally just to move money. The Lightning protocol has been designed for people who need payments to be cheap or private or fast or all of the above.
    Traffic on Lightning is definitely highly one-way and that reflects a reality of a small network where the receiver may not necessarily have a Lightning accepting destination to send their funds after receiving them. As the network grows the receivers will have more reasons to send the funds they received back out into the network. Also the aggregation of payments even in a single direction can still be an enormous savings. If you are buying articles on yalls.org and using a maximum protocol limit channel, even with traffic entirely in one direction you can perform over 100,000 transactions before you have to go back to the Blockchain with another channel open transaction.

    4.I don't know when we would see LN mass adoption, that would be a great outcome of the project but it depends on market adoption which is unpredictable.
    There are many obstacles but the main driver of adoption would be market demand. If there were to be profit in using Lightning or developing Lightning, then more people would use it or work on it. Figuring out those business models and efficiencies is the job of the market which requires investment and then trial and error.

    5.No, Lightning is not an equal replacement to the Blockchain and it cannot replace the Blockchain. If you view the full utilization of the chain space as a problem then Lightning cannot solve that problem because it doesn't replace all of the functions of the Blockchain and so it cannot replace all of the traffic of the Blockchain.
    Instead Lightning can act as an alternative to the Blockchain for the types of transfers where its differences are acceptable to the people transacting. So if you want to transfer a small amount and the Blockchain is too expensive, you can transfer the same amount of Bitcoin on Lightning and pay a lower fee.

    6.Lightning is a protocol for interoperability, so it can be either centralized or decentralized, depending on how people use the protocol. You can use the protocol to setup a centralized "intranet" Lightning to exchange funds between known entities, and these entities can work with governments. You can use the protocol to interact with unknown people and have these people run their nodes in privacy-preserving ways and avoid working with governments. Because the protocol is only describing the way that peers interact with each other, it doesn't dictate what the usage will look like, that is up to people who run the software.

    7.I know Trey Griffith and talked with him about his projects before he started his company, I think he did a great job exploring the space but not every exploration will find results even if the explorer is doing a perfect job.
    With Lightning Labs and Lightning Loop we have not hit mass adoption yet but in order for us to grow to mass adoption we need to start at the beginning and keep growing "一口吃不成胖子". The network and usage of our software does continue to grow. We are prepared for this growth and development to take time, and the market definitely is still small.
    BurntCoins 副船长 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:01:28
    不好意思,回错了
    BurntCoins 副船长 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:00:17
    https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/85694/77103
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 15:37:07

    Pierre-Marie:

    1. 我不知道闪电网络有什么缺陷,但是挑战肯定是有的。 现在对我来说,主要的挑战是闪电网络的可靠性。 听起来这并不是一个令人兴奋的问题,但我们正在建立的是一个支付网络,必须始终可靠。 我们需要跟踪所有令人讨厌的极端情况,并改善末端用途的用户体验。 其他常见的挑战还有流动性和路由计算,我认为前者并不是真正的缺陷,而是可以通过收费解决的一种资源限制,而后者则已经完成了一些有前景的工作,例如蹦床路由。

    2. 这是因为统计的数字仅包括锁定在公共通道上的资金。 越来越多的人看到人们使用私有(未公布)通道,尤其是使用移动非托管钱包的人,这些资金在闪电网络浏览器中不会出现。 我认为,这种趋势未来将得到放大,专用/未公布的闪电网络增长将大大超过公共/已公布闪电网络的增长。

    3. 用户体验(UX)无疑是一个重大挑战,但有了我们最新的钱包Phoenix,我们已经尽力解决了这个挑战,并提供了与常规的pre-Lighting比特币钱包相同的UX。 它包含诸如即时通道之类的功能,可以解决入站流动性问题。网络流量可能不平衡这一事实不一定是一件坏事,因为它可以降低流动性要求。 例如。 支付网关将主要进行*接收*资金,从而使它们免于需要事先拥有大量流动资金的需求。 用户可能会收到收入,但随后他们主要都是“支出” *,这意味着他们无需过多担心入站流动性。 流动性的真正压力在于路由节点,但这正是他们进行管理的工作,这也是他们应该竞争的地方。

    4. 我会说这个问题其实就是问何时才能看到比特币的大规模采用。 我认为LN只是用于此目的的工具。 咱俩的猜测是一样的。

    5. 闪电网络会带来极大改善,不仅是提高了整体吞吐量,而且还提高了付款速度(“即时确认”)。 这些提升能够满足比特币的需求吗? 时间会证明一切,但是如果我们最大限度地提高LN,这是需要回答的好问题。

    6. 闪电网络(LN)的中心化与其他中心化(如挖矿)之间存在根本差异。 在LN上,您始终可以绕过您不喜欢的节点,这在基础层上是不可能的。 经济上的诱因将导致出现大节点和较小的节点。 我们需要确保的是,即使您是小型节点运营商,您仍然可以轻松使用LN,这使得全局审查变得困难。

    7. 我们(ACINQ)并未就用户数量进行沟通,但是在过去的几个月中,我们已经看到LN使用量的巨大增长。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复xiaoxiaege 发表于2020-03-26 15:34:09 嘉宾
    1. I don’t know about flaws but there are certainly a few challenges ahead. The major challenge right now to me is reliability. It doesn’t sound like a very exciting problem to solve, but what we are building is a payment network and it has to be reliable, all the time. We need to track down all the nasty corner cases and improve the UX for end uses. Other usual suspects are liquidity and routing calculations, I think the former isn’t really a flaw but a resource limitation that will be solved with fees, and there are promising work done for the latter, e.g. with trampoline routing.
    2. That’s because that number only includes the funds locked in public channels. More and more, we see people using private (not-announced) channels, especially for mobile non-custodial wallets, which do not appear in explorers. I believe that going forward this trend is going to amplify and the growth of the private/unannounced network will largely outpace the growth of the public/announced network.
    3. UX is certainly a major challenge, with our newest wallet Phoenix we have tried to address it the best we could, and come up with an UX that is the same as a regular, pre-Lightning bitcoin wallet. It does include features like on-the-fly channels which solve the inbound liquidity issue.
    The fact that the network flow may be unbalanced is not necessarily a bad thing because it can lower the liquidity requirements. E.g. payment gateway will mostly *receive* funds, which save them from having large liquidity requirements beforehand. Users may receive their salary, but then they mostly *spend*, which means that they don’t need to worry too much about inbound liquidity. The real pressure regarding liquidity are routing nodes, but that’s precisely their job to manage it and that’s what they should be competing on.
    4.I would say the real question is when we can see Bitcoin’s mass adoption. I see LN as just a tool for that. Your guess is as good as mine.
    5. It improves it a lot, and not only the overall throughput, but also the speed of payments (“instant confirmations”). Will that be enough? Time will tell, but if we max out LN it’s a good problem to have.
    6. There is a fundamental difference between centralization in LN and centralization in e.g. mining. On LN, you can always bypass a node you don’t like, which isn’t true on the base layer. Economic incentives are such that there will be larger nodes and smaller nodes. What we need to make sure is that you can still easily use LN even if you are a small operator, which makes it difficult to globally censor.
    7. We (ACINQ) do not communicate on numbers, but we have seen tremendous growth of LN usage in the past months.


  • 牛头大哥 管理员 发表于2020-03-19 17:24:40
    大家好~本提问机器又上线啦!根据本次主题,有以下7个问题想要向嘉宾们请教:
    Q1. 首个闪电网络DEX Sparkswap在3月17日宣布关闭,创始人认为他们做的事情太超前了,你们认为现在就做闪电网络应用是否太早了呢?
    Q2. 有人说闪电网络就是比特币DeFi的典型例子,你们怎么看这个观点?比特币有可能做DeFi吗?
    Q3. 对于最近比特币价格的暴跌,你们有什么看法?
    Q4. 你们是hodler吗?
    Q5. 除了闪电网络之后,你们最看好的下一个加密货币趋势是什么?
    Q6. 你们都是如何进入这个圈子的?为什么决定专注于闪电网络?
    Q7. 你们的国家受疫情影响严重吗?现在都在做什么?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:15:04

    Alex Bosworth:

    1. 现在投资很多钱来解决一个不大的市场还为时过早。在iPhone刚问世时,如果你当时创建了Uber,它也不会成功,因为太少的人拥有iPhone。我们正处于闪电网络发展的阶段,在这个阶段,我们正与狂热者、小众应用程序一起发展网络。如果我们成功了,那么狂热者将成为企业,小众应用将会有更高的采用量。


    2. 我不是DeFi方面的专家,但闪电网络是一个可扩展的协议,它可以潜在地覆盖几乎所有可以在比特币区块链上解决的合约。这可能包括包括多方签署或发信号的合同,而闪电网络的基本协议本身提供了用户通过充当路由节点将资金投入工作的能力。

    随着Schnorr/Taproot soft fork的提出,这类应用程序将变得更容易开发。


    3. 我认为比特币价格不受其他受监管市场的限制是很好的,比如限制卖空、在价格下跌时阻止市场、在特定时间结束交易。

    比特币交易广泛,拥有多样化的拥有者基础,市场流动性强,因此我认为价格变动是真实市场动态的健康反映。我相信,这一下跌准确地反映了当前对货币供应的需求,在这个时候,可以理解的是,市场动态正在迅速转变,而且这种转变似乎在某种程度上从更投机、更充足的资本型投资转向更缓慢的市场、经济重建型投资。


    4. 我相信比特币是法币的替代品,而不是常规投资的替代品,但我尽量拿住一些比特币作为流动资本,并在我的闪电节点上方便路由。

    我相信HODLing是我们目前拥有对于比特币最好、开发最充分的用例。


    5. 我想把提高隐私作为一个主要趋势。货币最重要的一个方面是它是可替代的,要确保这一点还有很多工作要做。


    6. 2016年,我开始关于比特币的工作,在链码实验室(Chaincode Labs)开设了一个名为“The Residency”的新教育项目。这需要一个月的时间直接向比特币核心开发者学习如何开发比特币协议。

    我在BitGo工作的时候就开始了闪电网络的工作,在那里我们为比特币交易所和商家提供后端支持。我们可以将可扩展性视为链上收费上涨的一个问题,我开始研究闪电网络是如何为交易所提供一种解决方案,使其能够更快、更安全、更便宜地转移资金。


    7. 在我看来,美国将有最多的死亡和新冠病例,我不认为现在很乐观,但我相信我们会及时渡过难关。今年2月我确实去巴西参加了一个比特币会议,但从那以后我就自我隔离了。就目前的工作而言,Lightning Labs已经是一个远程工作公司,所以它并没有对我们的发展进程产生太大的影响。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复牛头大哥 发表于2020-03-27 11:17:32 嘉宾
    1. It's too early to invest a lot of money to address a market that is not big. Even when the iPhone came out, if you had created Uber at that time it would not have been successful because too few people had iPhones to justify a lot of cars. We are at a stage of Lightning development where we are bootstrapping the network with enthusiasts, with niche applications. If we are successful then enthusiasts will turn into businesses, niches will expand into higher volume adoption.

    2. I'm not an expert on DeFi, but Lightning is an extensible protocol that can potentially cover pretty much any kind of contract that can settle on the Bitcoin Blockchain. This can include contracts that include multi-parties signing or signaling, and Lightning's basic protocol itself offers the ability for users to put their capital to work by acting as routing nodes.
    With the proposed Schnorr/Taproot soft-fork, these kind of applications would become much easier to develop.

    3. I think it's great that the Bitcoin price is not subject to the kind of restrictions that other regulated markets place, like restricting short selling, stopping markets on price falls, ending trading at certain hours.
    Bitcoin is widely traded and has a diverse owner-base with a liquid market, so I think that price movements are healthy reflections of the real market dynamics. I trust that the drop accurately reflects the current demand for the currency supply, this is a time when market dynamics are understandably shifting quickly and the shift seems to be somewhat away from more speculative, plentiful-capital type investments towards more slow-market, economic rebuilding type investments.

    4. I believe in Bitcoin as a replacement for fiat and not a replacement for regular investments, but I HODL as far as keeping some Bitcoin around as liquid capital and for facilitating routing on my Lightning node.
    I believe HODLing is the best and most fully-developed use case for Bitcoin that we currently have.

    5. I would like to see privacy improvement as a major trend. One of the most important aspects of currency is that it is fungible and there is a lot of work to do to make sure that is the case.

    6. I started working in Bitcoin in 2016 with a new educational program from Chaincode Labs called "The Residency". This involved a month of learning directly from Bitcoin Core developers how the Bitcoin protocol is developed.
    I started working on Lightning while I was working at BitGo, where we did backend support for Bitcoin exchanges and merchants. We could see scalability as an issue with rising on-chain fees and I started researching how Lightning be a solution for exchanges to move money more quickly, securely, and cheaply.

    7. To me it looks like the US will have the most deaths and cases from COVID-19, I don't think it looks good right now but I'm sure we will get through it in time. I did go to a Bitcoin meetup in Brazil in February, but since that time I have been in isolation. As far as work goes, Lightning Labs is already mostly a remote-work company so it has not impacted our development progress a huge amount.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 15:44:00

    Samson Mow:

    1. 我不认为Sparkswap做的事情太超前,但他们的模式是有缺陷的。闪电网络最适合小额交易,所以我不认为他们能从自己的交易所获得可观的收入。此外,闪电网络钱包是线上的,所以有热钱包的风险,这也排除了用户交易大量资金的可能。闪电网络的主要问题是用户体验。然而,许多用户体验依赖于一些特定的新技术来开发和采用闪电网络,例如splicing(splicing可实现链下和链上比特币无缝切换,你可以用一笔交易开启、关闭通道、链上发送比特币输出。)和双向资金通道。一旦这类技术存在,用户体验将得到极大的改善。

    2. “DeFi”这个词有点模糊,定义也不清晰,因此很难确定什么是或不是DeFi。闪电网络是去信任化的、去中心化的,它确实为那些无法用比特币主链解决的问题带来了综合的解决方案。液态网络(Liquid Network)也将很快部署Simplicity智能合约语言,这意味着可以打造更多的创新项目,拥有与DeFi(即我们眼中的DeFi)相同的功能。像“DeFi”这样的流行词并不重要,重要的是打造出用户需要切想要的产品。

    3. 价格下跌是由恐慌、市场和过度杠杆化的交易员共同造成的。我们看到这种情况在BitMEX停止交易后就停止了。比特币的价格过了一段时间才恢复,但比特币的价格没有理由这么低,所以这种反弹是不可避免的。钱的流入总是需要时间,才能让我们恢复正常。我认为我们应该在今年5月减半的时候回到10000美元。

    4. 是的。最好的事情就是HODL。

    5. 液态网络(Liquid Network)的吸引力越来越大了,目前已经有950枚BTC锁入(peg-in)了液态网络(Liquid Network),Tether在液态网络(Liquid Network)上发行了1650万美元的USDt,以及BTSE交易所最近在液态网络(Liquid Network)上发行了平台币并融资。液态网络(Liquid Network)也在快速发展,Simplicity智能合约编程语言是其中的重要部分。一旦Simplicity部署好,我们会开始看到开发工作集中在有趣的新项目上——这些项目利用了复杂的智能合约。

    6. Blockstream由早期比特币开发者们以及Adam Back博士(Hashcash的发明者,该项技术用于比特币的PoW算法)创立。因此,我们选择比特币也是自然而然的。至于为什么选择闪电网络,是因为闪电网络是让比特币在全球范围内用于零售业务的唯一途径。我们从2015年开始投资闪电网络的研发,所以说我们很早就发现了它的潜力。我们其中一个开发者Christian Decker博士在《一个包含比特币双向微支付通道的快速和可扩展的支付网络》(A Fast and Scalable Payment Network with Bitcoin Duplex Micropayment Channels)论文中提出了闪电网络的概念。在闪电网络白皮书发布的时候,这篇论文还在进行同行审查,所以很多人都不了解他所做出的贡献。闪电网络是花费或接收比特币最便宜且最快的方式,与买午餐或咖啡等日常支付完美契合。其它产品无法与闪电网络的零售支付能力竞争。

    7. 我在加拿大,疫情控制得不是很好。加拿大卫生当局不是很有能力,政府也准备不足。我们没有足够的试剂,很难进行测试。口罩很难买到,政府也不提供口罩。没有隔离病例甚至处理疑似病例的程序,只建议待在家里。此外,我们在跟随美国的脚步,所以关闭边境的时间太晚了。然而,幸运的是,我们的人口密度不大,所以R0(基本传染指数:指在没有外力介入、所有人都没有免疫力的情况下,一个感染者在他具有传染性的这一段时间内,平均可以传染多少个人。)比较低。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复牛头大哥 发表于2020-03-26 15:24:36 嘉宾
    1. For Sparkswap, I don’t think it was that they were too early but their model was flawed. The LN is best suited for small transactions, so I don’t think that they would be able to generate significant revenue from their exchange. Also, Lightning wallets are online so there is hot wallet risk, which also precludes any users trading with a large amount of funds.
    The main issue with Lightning is the UX right now. However, a lot of the UX relies on some specific new tech for Lightning to be developed and adopted, such as splicing and dual-funded channels. Once that happens the UX will be greatly improved.
    2. The term “DeFi” is somewhat vague and undefined, so it’s difficult to determine what is or is not considered DeFi. Lightning is trustless and decentralized, and does open the door to much more complex solutions to problems that could not be solved using the Bitcoin main chain. The Liquid Network will also be implementing the Simplicity smart contract language soon, which means even more innovative projects can be built that open the door to the same functionality as what we generally consider to be “DeFi”.
    Buzzwords like “DeFi” ultimately are not that important. What is important is the ability to create products that users want and need.
    3. The price drop was caused by a combination of panic and the markets and over-leveraged traders. We saw it stop after BitMEX stopped trading. It took some time for the price to recover, but there was no reason for the Bitcoin price to be that low, so it was inevitable. It always takes time for money to come in and bring us back to normal. I think we should be back at 10k by the time of the halving this May.
    4. Yes. The best thing to do is simply to HODL.
    5. We’re beginning to see the Liquid Network gain traction with more than 950 BTC locked into it, $16.5M in USDt issued, as well as BTSE’s recent token fundraise. There is rapid development going on on Liquid too, and the Simplicity smart contract programming language is a big part of that. Once Simplicity is deployed, we should start to see development efforts focusing on interesting new projects that take advantage of the complex smart contracting available on Liquid.
    6. Blockstream was founded by early Bitcoin developers and Dr. Adam Back who is well known for inventing Hashcash, which is a technology used in Bitcoin’s proof-of-work algorithm. So it’s natural for us as a company to be focused on Bitcoin. As for why LN, it is the only way to get Bitcoin to be usable for retail operations at a planetary scale. We started investing in LN R&D in 2015 so we saw its potential from very early on. In fact, one of our developers, Dr. Christian Decker, came up with the idea of Lightning in a paper called “A Fast and Scalable Payment Network with Bitcoin Duplex Micropayment Channels.” It was under peer review when the more well known LN whitepaper was published, so most don’t know about his contribution.
    LN is the cheapest, fastest way to spend or receive BTC and is perfect for smaller payments that we ordinarily make such as buying lunch or coffee. Other offerings just don’t compete with Lightning for making retail payments.
    7. I’m in Canada now and it’s not being handled well at all. It doesn’t seem like the Canadian health authorities are very competent and the government is ill prepared. We don't have enough testing and it’s very difficult to get testing. Masks are hard to buy and the government isn’t providing them either. There are no procedures for isolating cases or even suspected cases, only suggestions to stay at home. Also, we closed borders far too late as we were following the lead of the US. However, we’re lucky because we don’t have very many dense population centers so our R0 is probably lower than that of other countries.
  • 闪电网络,在比特币价格低迷的时候都不再被公众提起。
  • 到海发狐 队长 发表于2020-03-20 18:04:21
    我们现在需要考虑使用闪电网络利弊的问题,正如我们当前遇到的,闪电网络存在着几个致命的问题,比如安全性,中心化,可能无法自证清白的问题。闪电网络的初衷设想是好的,但是在实际应用时问题重重。闪电网络已经存在很久了,但是并没有真正解决比特币的问题,闪电网络真的有开发下去的价值吗?既然比特币也问题重重,它的容量问题至今无法有效解决,那么我想问问嘉宾,与其在比特币之外附加一个闪电网络,是否可以考虑澳本聪的想法,“杀死btc,建立一个新的比特币。”,我们全球所有比特币持有者,是否可以在公平公正的前提下,杀死旧的比特币,建立一个公认的,新的比特币呢?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:16:16

    Alex Bosworth:

    我喜欢为闪电网络工作,因为我认为这是一个困难的挑战,意味着我们也许不会成功。我不认为比特币需要闪电网络,闪电网络只是有益的辅助。要有许多与闪电网络相似的目标要实现,我相信要探索所有这些想法,但闪电网络背后有很多动力让其从理论到实际应用。

    我要警告人们,外面有很多政客会撒谎,告诉人们他们想听的,他们会假装有解决技术难题的简单方法。我将更加关注该领域的长期专家,以了解技术的局限性,以及哪些解决方案确实具有技术前景。忽视现实世界的问题是因为你不想明白专家告诉你的是灾难。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复到海发狐 发表于2020-03-27 11:19:53 嘉宾
    I like working on Lightning because I think it is a difficult challenge, meaning that we may not succeed. I don't think that Bitcoin needs Lightning, it is just beneficial if it works. There are many other ideas to accomplish similar goals to Lightning, and I believe in exploring all of these ideas, but Lightning has a lot of momentum behind it which is very important to going from theory to actual use.

    I would warn people that there are plenty of politicians out there who will lie and tell people what they want to hear, they will pretend that there are easy solutions to difficult technical problems. I would pay more attention to the longstanding experts in the field to understand limitations of technology and also what solutions do have technical promise. Ignoring real world problems because you don't want to understand what experts are telling you is a recipe for disaster.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 15:48:16

    Samson Mow:

    今天,闪电网络可用于许多用例。 但是,我们需要记住,闪电网络仍处于Beta测试阶段,许多不同公司包括Blockstream一直在不断进行开发。 闪电网络当前的大多数(如果不是全部)问题已经有了解决方案,并且即将到来。 闪电网络无疑是比特币生态系统中快速发展的一部分,与SegWit或Taproot等链上改进不同,这种新技术开发无需等待共识。
    Samson Mow 水手 回复到海发狐 发表于2020-03-26 15:26:30 嘉宾
    LN is usable today for many use cases. However, we need to remember that Lightning is still in beta with ongoing development efforts from many different companies along with Blockstream. Most, if not all, of the current issues with LN have solutions in the pipeline too. Lightning is definitely a rapidly evolving part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and new tech developments don’t have to wait for consensus unlike on-chain improvements like SegWit or Taproot.
  • PHOENIX999 副船长 发表于2020-03-21 08:02:59
    2019 年比特币闪电网络影响最大的事件是传遍全世界的闪电火炬,但是闪电网络在 2019 年遭遇了软件缺陷,网络容量下降了 27%,那么在2020年闪电网络会有更大的发展吗?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:17:00

    Alex Bosworth:

    LN torch是闪电网络的一个有趣的应用程序,它是一个可供世界上任何人开发来让任何人使用的应用程序的平台。

    我想我们会看到更多这样的应用程序,但它需要一些创新的开发人员,也许还需要更多的工作来向开发人员展示更多的闪电网络的功能。我看到了许多未开发的有趣项目的潜力。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复PHOENIX999 发表于2020-03-27 11:21:29 嘉宾
    LN torch was a fun application of Lightning, which is a platform for anyone in the world to develop applications that can be used by everyone in the world.

    I think we'll see more applications like this, but it will take some innovative developers and maybe some more work to surface more Lightning features to developers. I see tons of untapped potential for interesting projects.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 15:59:07

    Samson Mow:

    这个问题可能有些误解。在旧版的闪电网络客户端有一个相当重大的漏洞,现在已经修复了。导致容量下降的原因实际上是采用了私有的闪电网络通道。闪电网络通道可以是公开的,也可以是私有的,大多数智能手机的闪电网络应用程序都切换到了私有通道。这导致公开可见的容量下降,但根据Blockstream工程师克里Christian Decker博士的分析,闪电网络的容量实际上增加了。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复PHOENIX999 发表于2020-03-26 15:58:08 嘉宾
    There may be some confusion with this question.
    There was a fairly critical vulnerability in older versions of Lightning clients which was patched. What “caused” the capacity drop was actually the adoption of private Lightning channels. There is an option for Lightning channels to be either public or private, and most smartphone Lightning apps switched to using private channels. This caused the publicly-viewable capacity to drop, but the total LN capacity actually grew according to Blockstream engineer Dr. Christian Decker’s analysis.
  • 闪电网络为区块链扩容提供了可持续发展方案,也引发了诸多质疑:闪电网络会不会形成新的中心化?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:18:02

    Alex Bosworth:

    我不知道闪电网络的未来,因为它是一个市场过程,所以我们不能模拟它的未来。我可以说,它可能会保持信任最小化,因为还有其他更有效和更简单的方法来做与闪电网络相同的事情。

    我可以说,因为去中心化是闪电网络的一个很好的特性,所以从事开源工作的人们通常都试图通过使闪电网络变得便宜和容易,让世界上的任何人参与进来,来帮助闪电网络尽可能地去中心化。因为闪电路由需要资金分配,所以对于更高价值的传输,它可能更中心化。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复链节点忠实用户 发表于2020-03-27 11:23:00 嘉宾
    I don't know the future of the Lightning Network because it is a market process, so we can't simulate its future. I can say that it is probably going to remain trust-minimized, because there are other much more efficient and easy methods to do the same thing as Lightning but with trust.

    I can say that because decentralization is a nice feature of the Lightning Network, people who are working on the open source effort are generally trying to help make Lightning as decentralized as possible by making it cheap and easy for anyone in the world to participate. It may be more centralized for higher value transfers because capital allocation is required for Lightning routing.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 16:20:50

    Samson Mow:

    闪电网络不太可能会中心化,因为任何人都可以启动和运行自己的闪电网络节点。你可以看一下闪电网络节点分布图,看不出任何中心化的迹象。有一些较大的节点拥有许多通道,但是绝大多数节点以去中心化的方式相互连接。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复链节点忠实用户 发表于2020-03-26 16:16:22 嘉宾
    Centralization in the LN is unlikely because anyone can start and run their own LN node. You can look at a graph of the entire LN right now and see no signs of centralization. There are some larger nodes with many channels, but the vast majority of nodes are interconnected in a decentralized manner.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 15:54:35

    Pierre-Marie :

    像所有具有规模经济的事物一样,LN将具有一定程度的中心化。 这是事实,会有更大的节点和较小的节点。 有两个重要事项需要考虑到:

    -还有一些因素促使去中心化,例如保护节点的能力。 它设置了一个限制,即节点可以达到的规模大小 vs. 被黑客入侵的风险;

    -作为用户,即使有较大的节点(可能要审查您或由您不喜欢的人来控制)也没有关系,只要您可以绕过它们即可。 这是LN付款与旧式链上付款之间的主要区别。


    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复链节点忠实用户 发表于2020-03-26 15:36:42 嘉宾
    Like everything that has economies of scale, it will have a degree of centralization. There will be larger nodes and smaller nodes, that’s a fact. Two important things to consider :
    there are also factors that push towards decentralization, e.g. the ability to secure the node. It sets a limit to how large a node can get vs the risk of being hacked;
    as a user it doesn’t really matter if there are large nodes (that may want to censor you or be controlled by people you don’t like) as long as you can route around them. This is a key difference between LN payments and legacy on-chain payments.
  • BurntCoins 副船长 发表于2020-03-21 20:59:56
    1.Schnorr签名、Taproot/Graftroot将会怎样影响闪电网络?
    2.“BOLT 11 invoice含有节点公钥,所以可能导致隐私问题”这个说法对么?
    3.什么是rendezvous routing?我有听说Tor的hidden service是利用这个原理实现的,在闪电网络中也有类似概念么?如果有,它会怎样提升闪电网络的隐私性?
    4.为什么我听说闪电网络用户还需要Tor才能进一步保护隐私?未来是不是有可能不再需要Tor呢?
    5.请问你们如何看待主链的拥堵?看上去很多用户都非常不希望他们的链上交易被“卡住”几小时甚至几天。据我所知,持有很多小额UTXO的用户也可能会感到苦恼或困惑,因为他们会发现自己可能需要付出更高的矿工费。
    6.“当初闪电网络的设计者们提出区块链拥堵可能导致系统性风险,可能需要一种紧急扩大区块的机制来应对”这种说法对么?你们现在的看法是怎样的呢?
    7.请问你们如何看待“HTLC不能真正保护跨越多个通道的小额支付,尤其是在矿工费水平高涨的时候”这个问题?我看到有人说double HTLC或probabilistic payment可以解决这个问题,但也有人说这些办法都并没有真正解决问题。
    8.这次AMA活动的介绍中有这么一句话:“一旦双方的交易确定结束,就可以关闭通道,将最终的交易状态记录到比特币区块链上”,不知道你们怎么看待这种说法?用户是不是应该尽量保持通道长期打开呢?
    9.除了中心化托管钱包,闪电网络有希望做到用户离线时仍然可以收款吗?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-27 14:33:43
    1. Taproot/Graftroot将使闪电网络通道的开关交易与比特币区块链上的其他交易完全相同。这意味着用户在使用闪电网络时可以比以前更私密,这有利于比特币的可互换性(fungibility)。

    2. 节点的公钥是唯一标识符。如果你在论坛或社交媒体上发布你的公钥,这只涉及到隐私问题。如果你这样做了,那么这个公钥就可以关联到你的论坛/社交媒体用户名上,这可能是你想要的,也可能不是。

    3. 闪电网络中的集合路由(Rendezvous routing)可以加密私有通道并将其添加到全球闪电网络路由表中,从而允许支付的发送方或接收方保留其隐私。

    4. 用Tor包裹闪电网络节点传输的数据,并将这些数据路由到Tor网络。这样做可以隐藏数据的来源,也可以隐藏接收方(使用隐藏服务)的信息。闪电网络节点的IP地址是公开可见的,所以如果用户有隐私意识,使用Tor可以进行隐藏。然而,闪电网络支付是通过闪电网络以类似的方式进行路由的。使用Tor对于保持节点的IP地址隐私非常有用。

    5. 矿工不会优先处理手续费低的交易。用户可以选择提高交易费用来让自己的交易排序靠前。UTXOs较小的用户可以选择等待使用低手续费的合适时机。所有交易费用支出都是为了安全。矿工收集这些费用作为奖励以提供安全的比特币区块链。没有这些费用,比特币网络不会吸引这么多的矿工带来安全性,比特币会因此变得不安全。交易拥堵是一件好事,因为这意味着矿工因PoW得到了奖励,这对比特币用户是有利的。

    6. 除了直接增加区块大小之外,还有其他方法可以扩容。Schnorr和Taproot将让单个区块中包含更多的交易,从而有效地增加区块的容量,而不需要增加其“大小”。同时维护现在的区块对于比特币的节点网络来说,这个大小不会导致负担太大。

    7. 从当前闪电网络的设定来看,非常非常小额的支付,在某些特定的情况下,可能无法被路由。闪电网络最初的设计在2015年左右,当时比特币的价格比现在低得多。因此,在当时,这些无法支付的小额款项是无关紧要的。而现在,由于比特币的价格已经上涨,这些交易所需支付的金额相对较大。

    8. 这取决于用户交易的频率。如果交易频率较高,保持通道开启是个好主意。即使他们不经常交易,为了将来的交易,保持通道打开也是一个好主意。

    9. 这方面的研究正在进行中,看起来确实是有可能的!很重要的一点是,闪电网络的开发仍在继续,而且它仍然是一项非常年轻的技术。如果你想要某样东西,实现它的最好方法就是开发,或者雇一个开发者把它开发出来。还有很多事情需要做。
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:26:16

    Alex Bosworth:

    1. 我不认为Schnorr/Taproot会对闪电网络产生巨大的影响,但它会让事情变得更高效、更私密。由于使用Schnorr更容易实现签名聚合,因此通道关闭所需的链上空间更少,也更难将它们识别为通道。

    闪电网络还可以在内部协议本身中更广泛地使用Schnorr签名,以获得点对点的闪电协议的一些效率,这不需要软分叉,但这些改进尚待开发。


    2. 从技术上讲,BOLT11 invoice不一定有公钥,但公钥实际上可以从所需的BOLT11签名中恢复。

    如果您通过闪电网络接收付款而不发送,公钥可能会是一个隐私问题,这是闪电网络需要改进的地方。一个可能的解决方案是加密最终路径,包括最终公钥。还有其他的解决方案和隐私问题需要解决。


    3. LND不支持集合路由(Rendezvous Routing),这不是我们正在研究的内容,但这是一种潜在的方法,可以实现我刚才所说的:加密到一个节点的最终路由,并通过另一个节点重定向付款。

    我不是Tor方面的专家,但LND确实支持到LND节点的网络连接隐藏服务,这有助于保护隐私。


    4. 闪电网络是一种使用常规互联网进行通信的协议。因为它是建立在普通互联网之上的,任何隐私问题都会转嫁给闪电网络。Tor是一个可以用来保护隐私的工具,但也有其他方法可以构建或使用,Tor只是一个流行的选择。


    5. 我认为区块链的设计方式会导致拥堵,但我认为一定程度的拥堵是允许的。区块链由每个人向其他人播报他们的交易。如果有太多的人同时播报,那么很难听到其他人的或者被听到。

    我想看到的是,我不想看到一个无人的废弃区块链。那就像一家没有人的餐厅。我希望看到一个不太超载的繁忙区块链,就像一个人不多不少的餐厅。

    闪电网络是一个为较小的价值支付解决方案,所以如果你使用闪电网络,那么你不需要担心这种事情时,你正在进行支付。


    6. 我不同意他们的具体评估,虽然我肯定有兴趣为灵活扩大区块提供坚实的建议。我并不反对较大的区块,只要它们是以一种无争议的方式完成的,这来自于创建可靠且分析良好的技术计划。

    把你的钱放在闪电网络上肯定会比一个冷钱包更不安全,所以我会尽量把你在闪电网络中不需要的钱转到冷钱包上。我在做一个叫Lightning Loop的产品,它可以帮助你做到这一点。


    7. 缓解这一问题的一个办法是将支付价值从无法上链的HTLC转移到链上费用,因此收益和成本可以被呈现。

    这已经在闪电协议中进行了部署,但这是一个持续的问题,当上链不是解决方案时,还有更多可能的缓解措施,如概率支付或流式传输非常小的值。


    8. 只要你有可能想使用它们,你应该保持你的通道开放。如果你不再需要它们,你应该关闭它们。

    通道的平均寿命是9个月,我的通道已经开通两年了。


    9. 闪电网络是以比特币为基础的,比特币是以互联网为基础的,也可以在不连接互联网的情况下工作,但从根本上说,你需要访问互联网才能在不信任他人的情况下接收比特币。

    对于如何限制对他人的信任,有很多想法,其中一个是邮箱HTLC。这将允许路由节点在您联机之前为您保留收到的付款,但他们将无法为自己收取该付款。这已经创建为闪电网络的自定义扩展,但还不是标准。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复BurntCoins 发表于2020-03-27 11:34:50 嘉宾
    1. I don't think Schnorr/Taproot will have a huge impact on Lightning, but it will allow things to be somewhat more efficient and more private. Because signature aggregation is easier to accomplish with Schnorr, channels can require less on-chain space to close, they will be more difficult to identify as channels.
    LN can also use Schnorr signatures more generally in the internal protocol itself to get some efficiencies for its peer to peer Lightning protocol, and that does not require a soft-fork but these improvements have yet to be developed.

    2. Technically speaking a BOLT11 invoice does not necessarily have the public key, the public key can actually be recovered from the required BOLT 11 signature though.
    Public keys could be a privacy issue if you are receiving payments over the Lightning Network and not sending them, that's an area for improvement in Lightning. One potential solution is encrypting the final path, including the final public key. There are other solutions, and other privacy problems to solve as well.

    3. Rendezvous routing is not supported by LND and it's not something that we are working on, but it's a potential way to do what I was talking about: encrypt the final route to a node and redirect the payment through another node.
    I'm not an expert on Tor, but LND does support a hidden service for network connectivity to the LND node, which can help with privacy.

    4. Lightning is a protocol that uses the regular Internet to communicate. Because it is built on top of the regular Internet any privacy problems there will be passed on to Lightning. Tor is a tool that you can use to protect your privacy but there are other methods that could be built or used, Tor is just a popular choice.

    5. I think that the way that the Blockchain is designed invites congestion, but I think some level of congestion is ok. The Blockchain works by everyone shouting out their transaction to everyone else. If you have too many people shouting then it is hard to hear other people and to be heard.
    As far as what I want to see, I don't want to see a deserted Blockchain with no one there. That would be like a restaurant with no one in it. I'd like to see a busy Blockchain that isn't too overloaded, like a restaurant with plenty of people but not too many.
    Lightning is a solution for smaller value payments, so if you use Lightning then you don't need to worry about this kind of thing when you are making your payment.

    6. I don't agree with their assessment specifically, although I would definitely be interested in solid proposals for flexible blocksizes. I'm not opposed to larger block sizes as long as they are done in a non-contentious way, and that comes from creating solid and well analyzed technical plans.
    Putting your funds on Lightning is definitely going to be less secure than a cold wallet, so I would try and push your funds that you don't need in Lightning to your cold wallet. I work on a product called Lightning Loop that can help you do that.

    7. A mitigation to this issue is to move the payment value out of the HTLC that cannot go to the Blockchain and into the on-chain fee, so the benefit and cost is still somewhat represented.
    This has already been deployed in the Lightning protocol, but this is an on-going issue and there are more possible mitigations like probabilistic payments or streaming very small values when going to the Blockchain is not an option for settlement.

    8. You should keep your channels open for as long as you potentially want to use them. If you no longer need them, you should close them.
    The average channel life is 9 months, I have channels that have been open for 2 years now.

    9. Lightning is based on Bitcoin and Bitcoin is based on the Internet and there are potential workarounds to not being connected but fundamentally you need access to the Internet to receive Bitcoin without trusting someone else.
    There are ideas for how to limit the trust in other people, one idea is mailbox HTLC. This would allow the routing node to hold on to the incoming payment for you until you come online, but they wouldn't be able to take that payment for themselves. This has already been created as a custom extension to Lightning but is not yet a standard.
    Samson Mow 水手 回复BurntCoins 发表于2020-03-26 17:11:17 嘉宾
    1. Taproot/Graftroot will make LN channel open/close transactions appear identical to other transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain. This means that users can use Lightning more privately than before, which is good for Bitcoin’s fungibility.
    2. A node’s public key is a unique identifier. It’s only a privacy problem if you post your public key on a forum or on social media. If you do that, then the public key can be tied to your forum / social media user name, which you may or may not want.
    3. Rendezvous routing in Lightning basically encrypts private channels and adds them to the global LN routing table, allowing sender or receiver of a payment to remain private.
    4. Using Tor wraps the data transmitted by LN nodes and routes that data through the Tor network. Doing this hides the origin of the data, and can also hide the recipient (using hidden services). LN node IP addresses are publicly visible, so using Tor can hide them if the user is privacy savvy. However, LN payments are routed through the Lightning network in a similar fashion. Using Tor is mostly useful for keeping your node’s IP address private.
    5. Low fee transactions are considered low priority by miners. Users can optionally increase their fees to jump the transaction queue. Users with smaller UTXOs have the option to wait until it’s opportune to transact with lower fees. All transaction fees pay for security. Miners collect these fees as a reward for providing security for the Bitcoin blockchain. Without these fees, the Bitcoin network won’t attract as many miners to provide security which leaves Bitcoin less secure. The transaction congestion is a good thing because it means miners are being rewarded for their PoW, which benefits all Bitcoin users.
    6. There are other ways to increase block capacity than by simply increasing the block size. Schnorr and Taproot will allow more transactions to fit into a single block than before, effectively increase the total block capacity without needing to increase the “size”. All while maintaining a block size that is not too burdensome for Bitcoin’s node network to process.
    7. Very very small payments, under some specific scenarios, may not be able to be routed as a result of the current design of the Lightning Network. Lightning was initially designed back around 2015 when the price of Bitcoin was much less than it is now. As a result, these small unroutable payments were, back then, inconsequential. Now that Bitcoin has increased in price, these payments are relatively larger.
    8. It depends on how frequently a user is likely to transact. It’s a good idea to keep the channels open if they do. Even if they transact infrequently, it’s a good idea to keep them open in case of future transactions.
    9. There is research being done in this area and it looks like it is indeed possible! It’s important to realize that LN development is ongoing and it’s still a very young technology. If there is something you want, the best way to make it a reality is to work on it or hire a developer to build it. There’s a lot that needs to be done.
    BurntCoins 副船长 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:00:57
    https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/85694/77103
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 16:28:03

    Pierre-Marie :

    1. 这是一种优化(例如,我们可以拥有较小的消息和交易)。

    2. 我不确定你的意思。 你的LN节点的公钥与比特币地址优点类似。 如果你在社交媒体上发布LN invoice,每个人都会知道此节点ID是你的(但没人会知道你收到了多少钱,这是与常规比特币地址的关键区别)。 你还可以通过创建新的LN钱包来更改节点ID。

    3. 集合路由(rendezvous routing)使付款通过一个中间节点,付款人和收款人各自计算一半的路由。 这有助于保护收款人节点的隐私。

    4. 它们不在同一层上运行。 去年秋天,在LNCONF @ Berlin上又一场关于这个的精彩演讲。 其中有两个要点:

    -“真正”隐私的关键要求是匿名集的大小(使用的人越多越好)。 使用Tor的人多于使用LN的人,因此即使您在LN层上不是匿名的,您在Tor层上也可能是匿名的。

    -专用/未公布通道的不利之处在于,您连接到的节点很有可能知道您是该通道的付款来源/目的地。 您无法将其隐藏给同伴,但可以使用Tor隐藏IP地址。

    5. LN旨在解决此问题,并且作为一个很好的副作用,它还可以使付款立即进行。 如果我们希望比特币能够被大规模采用,那么在保持比特币关键特性的同时,扩展无疑是最紧迫的问题之一。 目前,LN是我们最好的选择。

    6. 您指的可能是这样,因为LN的安全性是通过在区块链上发布交易的能力来实现的。 这是对网络的一种理论攻击,可以通过较高的超时缓解一些攻击。 另一种解决方式是,如果节点想要保护自己免受这种风险的影响,则可以限制节点的大小。

    7. 确实,如果HTLC(付款)太小(或费用太高),以至于一笔闪电commitment交易中的相应输出将比付款本身更昂贵,则将其修剪。 我认为这是合理的做法。 作为LN节点,您仍然可以选择不转发/接受这些HTLC(请记住,如果没有LN,这些付款也无法进行)。 对于你说的“双倍HTLC或probabilistic支付”,我不太清楚是什么。

    8. 简单来讲,通道应保持尽可能长的使用寿命,以抵消打开/关闭它们的成本。 但这确实取决于您使用LN的目的。 如果您是付款网关通道(主要是通过LN接收付款),所有资金最终会留在你的这一步,您可能会希望在某个时候关闭它们,除非您也使用LN来支付开销/工资 /等等。

    9. 不可以,您的节点需要在线才能接收LN付款。 但有很多技巧可以解决你的需要。 例如。 如果您正在使用手机钱包,您可能会收到一条离线通知,内容是付款正在进行中,请唤醒应用程序以接收付款,等等,类似的方式。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复BurntCoins 发表于2020-03-26 16:14:20 嘉宾
    1. It is a source of optimization (e.g. we can have smaller messages and transactions).
    2. I’m not sure what you mean. Your Lightning node’s public key is a bit like a bitcoin address. If you paste Ligntning invoices all over social media, everyone will know that this node id is yours (but no-one will know how much money you received, a key difference with a regular bitcoin address). You can also change your node id by creating a new Lightning wallet.
    3. Rendez-vous routing makes payments go through an intermediate node, the payer and payee each compute half the route. This helps protect the privacy of the recipient node.
    4. They don’t operate at the same layer. There was a great presentation at LNCONF@Berlin last fall on the topic. Two takeaways:
    a key requirement for “true” privacy is the size of the anonymity set (the more people are using it the better). There are more people using Tor than people using LN so even if you’re not anonymous at the Lightning level you could be anonymous at the Tor level.
    a downside of private/unannounced channels is that the node you are connected to knows with a high probability that you are the origin/destination of payments for that channel. You can’t hide that from you peer, but you can hide your IP address with Tor.
    5. Lightning was designed to solve this issue, and as a nice side-effect it also makes payments instant. Scaling - while preserving Bitcoin’s key properties- is certainly one of the most pressing issues if we want Bitcoin to reach mass adoption. Lightning is currently our best shot at it.
    6. You may refer to the fact that, since the security of Lightning is enforced by the ability to publish transactions on the blockchain. That is a theoretical attack on the network that can be somewhat mitigated with higher timeouts. Another way to look at it is that this puts a limit on how large a node can get if they want to protect themselves from this risk.
    7. Indeed, if an HTLC (payment) is so small (or fee so high) that the corresponding output in a Lightning commitment transaction would be more expensive than the payment itself, then it is trimmed. I think that’s a reasonable thing to do. As a Lightning node, you still have the choice to not forward/accept those HTLCs (keeping in mind that those payments wouldn’t be possible without Lightning anyway). Not sure what “double HTLC pr probabilistic payment” are.
    8. Short answer is, channels should be left alive as long as possible to offset the cost of opening/closing them. But it really depends on what you are using Lightning for. If you are a payment gateway (mostly receiving payments over Lightning) channels will always end up with all the funds on your side and you will probably want to close them at some point, except if you are also using LN to pay your expenses/wages/etc.
    9. No, your node needs to be online to receive a Lightning payment. But
    there are a lot of tricks that you can do around that. E.g. if you are using
    a mobile wallet, you could receive an off-band notification that a
    payment is on its way and wake up the app to receive it, things like that.

  • cncoin 船长 发表于2020-03-22 08:38:41
    目前很多中文交易所钱包都没有集成闪电网络,你们在未来有没有相关的市场推广计划,比如闪电网络btc充值等等? 闪电网络上的开发环境现在如何,如何去搭建相应的应用生态? 闪电网络未来几年的发展规划是什么?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:27:56

    Alex Bosworth:

    我和中国的交易所和钱包讨论过闪电网络。我知道Cobo 钱包支持闪电网络。我认为更多的是由用户要求访问闪电网络,然后开发人员和交易所就支持它。我们最近用LND实现了Bitfinex 交易所的集成闪电网络。它们是世界上最大的交易所之一,总部设在香港。

    在闪电网络中开发比在比特币或其他链上开发要容易得多,因为您只需等待一个区块就可以获得即时反馈。也不必担心多次确认。

    我已经发布了一个开源的MIT许可的node.js库,用于在闪电网络上构建应用程序,并构建了一些自己的应用程序,我想这是一个构建应用程序的好环境,在未来几年,LND将在未来一两年为开发人员打开更多的选择。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复cncoin 发表于2020-03-27 11:36:07 嘉宾
    I have had discussions with Chinese exchanges and wallets about LN. I know Cobo wallet does support LN. I think it's more up to users to demand access to LN and then the developers and exchanges will support it. We recently had Bitfinex exchange integrate Lightning using LND. They are one of the largest exchanges in the world and they are headquartered in Hong Kong.

    Development in Lightning is much easier than developing on Bitcoin or other chains, because you get instant feedback with minimal waiting for a block. There is also no need to worry about multiple confirmations.

    I have published an open source MIT licensed node.js library for building applications on LN and built some of my own applications as well, I would say it is a great environment for building applications and in the next few years LND will open up a lot more options for developers in the next year or two.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 17:58:58

    Samson Mow:

    我们的确有计划在我们的钱包Blockstream Green添加闪电网络。我们的闪电网络客户端c-lightning,由于其基于插件的架构和模块化设计,用来开发应用程序很简单。明年闪电网络的重点将放在隐私方面。在接下来的几年里,我们可以期待Eltoo Lightning,这是一个经过大量改进的闪电网络设计,而且不会有惩罚措施。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复cncoin 发表于2020-03-26 17:56:12 嘉宾
    We do have plans to add LN to our wallet, Blockstream Green. Our LN implementation, c-lightning, is easy to use to develop applications on because of its plugin-based architecture and modular design. The focus for LN this coming year will be on improving privacy aspects. In the next few years, we can look forward to Eltoo Lightning which is a much improved LN design without penalties.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 16:59:31

    Pierre-Marie

    在过去的几个月中,我们看到了支持LN的交易所的最新进展:Bitstamp,BitMEX,Bitfinex…这可以说是因为这些都是比特币中重要的以利润为导向的参与者,这意味着他们押注LN是比特币的未来。 至于钱包,现在有越来越多的LN钱包,而且随着开发人员可以使用越来越多的工具和库(例如通过Square Crypto的LN开发工具等),支持LN的成员列表可能只会越来越大。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复cncoin 发表于2020-03-26 16:37:30 嘉宾
    We have seen a recent trend of exchanges supporting Lightning in the past months: Bitstamp, BitMEX, Bitfinex… It’s telling because those are significant profit-oriented actors in Bitcoin, and that means they bet that Lightning is the future of Bitcoin. As for wallets, there are more and more Lightning wallets out there, and it is probably only going to amplify as more and more tools and libraries are available for developers (e.g. with initiatives such as the Lightning Development Kit from Square Crypto).
  • ygp668 队长 发表于2020-03-22 15:43:42
    闪电网络怎么使用?没用过。
  • 币圈大灰狼 水手 发表于2020-03-24 11:15:52
    有消息称Lightning Labs的研究人员计划为闪电网络开发新功能keysend, 能否详细介绍一下?它将如何帮助实现比特币继承功能?


    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:30:34

    Alex Bosworth:

    KeySend是一种实验性的LND方法,用于将付款推送到目的地,而不需要接收方先创建invoice。

    有了闪电支付,你也可以附加自定义信息到你的支付,这样就可以用于支付的APLsi或备忘录,很多令人兴奋的可能性。

    因为它不是一个标准的BOLT特征,尽管它在默认情况下没有启用,并且可能会发生更改。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复币圈大灰狼 发表于2020-03-27 11:37:29 嘉宾
    KeySend is an experimental LND method for pushing payments to the destination without the receiver creating an invoice first.

    With Lightning payments you can also attach custom messages to your payments so this can be used for APIs or memos on payments, lots of exciting possibilities.

    Because it is not a standard BOLT feature though it is not enabled by default and it's subject to change.
  • bit行走 副船长 发表于2020-03-24 11:27:05
    目前对比特币而言,价值存储和储藏,即类似黄金的属性,对抗通胀越发明显,而作为支付手段,不仅是受制于时间,更多也来自交易成本和币价本身的高波动性。如果比特币被更多存入冷钱包,尤其在疫情、金融危机和减半叠加影响下,大家可能更多选择去屯币,流动性降低后,做闪电网络是否还有意义?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 14:32:19

    Alex Bosworth:

    如果没有必要流动资金,那么你是对的,闪电网络的设计毫无意义。

    现在,我不同意更多的人没有转移他们的资金。如果你缩小区块链,趋势仍然是使用更多的空间。如果你缩小价格,比特币的需求量会越来越大,这意味着更多的交易。如果你缩小交易量,我们将继续创下该交易量的历史新高。

    可能短期内没有闪电的直接压力,但这也可能是好事,因为高质量的软件不能仓促完成,即使被更多的开发人员同时研发。我们发布了很多工作代码,但还有很多工作要做。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复bit行走 发表于2020-03-27 11:38:50 嘉宾
    If there is no need to move around capital you are right that there is no point to the Lightning Network as it has been designed.

    Right now I would not agree that more people are not moving their capital. If you zoom out on the Blockchain the trend is still to use more space. If you zoom out on the price, Bitcoin is becoming more highly in demand, meaning more trading. If you zoom out on trading volume, we continue to hit all time highs of that trading volume.

    It may be that in the short term that there is no immediate pressure for Lightning, but that also may be good because quality software cannot be rushed and often cannot even be completed more quickly with more developers. We have a lot of working code released but there is a lot more to do.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 17:59:40

    Samson Mow:

    仅仅囤BTC的人不太可能对流动性产生太大影响。大多数人可能会把大部分的比特币放在冷钱包里,也会有一小部分放在热钱包里或闪电网络通道里。一旦你开启了闪电网络通道,你可以多次交易而不用支付昂贵的链上费用。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复bit行走 发表于2020-03-26 17:56:41 嘉宾
    People holding BTC will not likely have much of an effect on liquidity. Most people will likely hold the majority of their BTC in cold storage, and also have a small amount in a hot wallet or a Lightning channel for spending. Once you have a Lightning channel open, you can transact many times without paying expensive on-chain fees.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:00:35

    Pierre-Marie

    在某些时候,你总会想花掉你的比特币,这时候就是LN出场的时候。你之所以持有比特币,是因为打算以后花掉。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复bit行走 发表于2020-03-26 16:38:24 嘉宾
    At some point you will want to spend your bitcoins, that’s when Lightning comes in. You are only holding because you plan to spend later.
  • word马鸭 水手 发表于2020-03-24 14:12:56
    要是减半之后币价不上去,矿工的手续费减少会不会威胁到比特币网络的系统安全?对此,闪电网络会有什么应对举措呀?比如会不会考虑将一部分手续费收入补贴给矿工?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 15:26:49

    Alex Bosworth:

    我认为减半后价格不一定会上涨,这确实意味着确认的安全性会降低。

    从技术上讲,他们少收手续费是不对的,他们应该收同样数额的交易费,但新币的补贴金额应该会下降。

    我正在使用Lightning Loop做的一件事是,通过创建一个连接到区块链的桥梁,让拥有Lightning资金的人能够更容易地发送给区块链上的人,使区块链对拥有Lightning余额的人更有用。

    在链上安全性较低的情况下,Lightning还可以帮助提供更多的安全性。通常情况下,如果链上安全性较低,您会等待更多的确认时间。如果你有闪电通道,你可以等待更长的时间来确认,但在那之后,你可以发送,而不用等待区块。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复word马鸭 发表于2020-03-27 11:40:15 嘉宾
    I don't think the price will necessarily go up after the halving, which does mean that the security of a confirmation will be reduced.

    It's not technically correct that they will collect less fees, they should collect the same amount of transaction fees, but the subsidy amount of new coins should go down.

    One thing I am working on with Lightning Loop is actually trying to make the Blockchain more useful to people who have Lightning balances by creating a bridge to the Blockchain for people who have Lightning funds to be able to send to people on the Blockchain more easily.

    Lightning can also help offer more security in a scenario where there is less on-chain security. Normally what you would do if there is less on-chain security is that you would wait more time for more confirmations. If you have Lightning channels you can wait for a longer time for those to confirm, but after that you can send without waiting for blocks.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 18:00:12

    Samson Mow:

    闪电网络交易是链下的,矿工只会从链上通道的开启和关闭交易中收取费用。因此,闪电网络不太可能给矿工提供多少补偿。如果比特币的价格不上涨,那么效率低下的矿工将暂时关机。Blockstream的挖矿业务电力和运营成本很低,我们可以比大多数矿工坚持的更久,成为最后的幸存者。不过我认为这方面不应该太担心,因为很有可能比特币的价格将继续上涨,这样区块奖励将始终保证比特币挖矿有利可图。Asic研发方面也有持续的进步。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复word马鸭 发表于2020-03-26 17:57:09 嘉宾
    LN transactions are off-chain, so miners will only collect fees from on-chain channel opening and closing transactions. So it’s not likely LN will help to compensate miners much. If the price of BTC doesn’t go up, then inefficient miners will power off temporarily. For Blockstream’s mining operations, our electricity and operational costs are low enough that we can outlast most miners and be the last ones standing. I don’t think there should be any worry because it’s highly likely Bitcoin’s price will keep going up such that block rewards will always make it profitable to mine Bitcoin. You also have continual advancements in ASICs too.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:01:21

    Pierre-Marie

    我认为该问题完全与LN无关。 如果矿工没有利润,那么他们将停止开采,挖矿难度会降低,从而使剩余的矿工受益。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复word马鸭 发表于2020-03-26 16:38:53 嘉宾
    That problem is completely independent of Lightning in my opinion. If miners are not profitable, then they’ll stop mining and difficulty goes down, benefitting remaining miners.
  • pai守护者 船员 发表于2020-03-24 14:53:34
    之前Roger Ver和李启威就“2019年底是否会有1000家商户接受LN”打了赌,这件事情有后续吗?现在闪电网络的采用率是什么水平?LN的节点增长是否处于停滞状态?有人认为现实生活中LN的应用场景相对匮乏,对此你们怎么看?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 15:28:30

    Alex Bosworth:

    我不太清楚这个赌约,但LN的采用对我来说似乎相当健康,而且它比其他任何东西都更受比特币友好商家总数的限制。

    Lightning被设计成一个私有系统,所以很难了解到底发生了什么,我们只能看到网络的一小部分。从我在自己的节点上看到的情况来看,交易比以往任何时候都多,通常节点的数量在增加,但不是很快。

    我认为到目前为止,我们真正认识到的闪电网络的潜力还不到1%。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复pai守护者 发表于2020-03-27 11:42:12 嘉宾
    I'm not familiar with the bet but the adoption of LN seems pretty healthy to me, and it's more limited by the number of total Bitcoin-friendly merchants than anything else.

    Lightning is designed to be a private system so it's difficult to get a sense of what is going on, we only see a fraction of the network. From what I see on my own node there are more transactions than ever, and generally the number of nodes is increasing, but not very rapidly.

    I think it's true that we have only realized less than 1% of the potential of the Lightning Network so far.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 18:00:42

    Samson Mow:

    自2018年以来,闪电网络的采用率发展非常快。从一些行业成员发布的推文来看,Roger Ver似乎输掉了这场赌注。至于闪电网络的实际应用,世界各地有许多商店和餐馆接受闪电网络支付来购买食品和其他零售类物品,也有电子游戏加入了闪电网络支付。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复pai守护者 发表于2020-03-26 17:57:40 嘉宾
    Since 2018, the adoption rate of LN has been very rapid. Based on some tweets by industry members, it seems that Roger Ver lost the bet. As for real life applications for LN, there are many shops and restaurants around the world that accept LN payments for food purchases and other retail items. There are video games that incorporate LN payments as well.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:02:02

    Pierre-Marie

    我不知道那个赌注,我认为与比特币相关的任何赌注都是冒险的游戏;-)比特币-不仅闪电-目前还没有广泛用于支付,尽管我相信将来会有这么一天 。 有多种因素在起作用,例如波动性,可扩展性,LN仅解决其中之一。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复pai守护者 发表于2020-03-26 16:39:25 嘉宾
    I don’t know about that bet and I think making any bets related to Bitcoin is a risky game ;-) Bitcoin --not only Lightning-- isn’t currently widely used for payments, even if I believe it will in the future. There are multiple factors at play, e.g. volatility, scalability, Lightning is only addressing one of them.
  • 川南由北 船员 发表于2020-03-24 16:28:53
    你们支持比特币核心开发人员 Pieter Wuille 提出的Taproot/Schnorr升级提案吗?这会对闪电网络带来什么好处?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 15:33:26

    Alex Bosworth:

    我很大程度上支持这个提议,但我认为总有改进的余地,它将修正SegWit犯下的一些错误,这表明没有什么是完美的。

    我在上面回答说,它将有利于LN,但只是在一个有限的方式,没有LN的关键特性或一个必要的未来特性依赖于Schnorr/ Taproot。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复川南由北 发表于2020-03-27 11:43:19 嘉宾
    I generally support the proposal, I think there is always room for improvement and it will be fixing some mistakes that were made in SegWit which goes to show that nothing is perfect.

    I answered above that it will benefit LN but only in a limited way, there is no critical feature of LN or a necessary future feature that depends on Schnorr/Taproot.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 18:01:13

    Samson Mow:

    当然!这会让闪电网络获益,因为它将使链上通道的打开/关闭交易看起来与非闪电网络交易一样。这可以让闪电网络隐私性更强,整体提高了比特币的可互换性。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复川南由北 发表于2020-03-26 17:58:15 嘉宾
    Sure! Yes, it will benefit LN because it will make on-chain channel opening / closing transactions look the same as unrelated non-LN transactions. This makes using LN more private and improves overall Bitcoin fungibility.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:02:56

    Pierre-Marie

    是的! 主要是Schnorr将使LN受益匪浅。 Taproot允许将LN链上交易(通道打开/关闭)与“正常”交易区分开,从而增加了匿名性。 Schnorr可以对LN进行很多改进(路径解相关以实现更好的隐私,可取消的付款等)

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复川南由北 发表于2020-03-26 16:40:00 嘉宾
    Yes! Mainly Schnorr will benefit LN a lot. Taproot allows LN on-chain transactions (channel open / close) to be indistinguishable from "normal" transactions, increasing the anonymity set. Schnorr allows a lot of improvements to LN (path decorrelation for better privacy, cancellable payments, etc)
  • 春风正得意 船员 发表于2020-03-24 18:12:04
    关于链上交易,闪电网络是不是只是一种过渡方案?最终交易容量的问题还是需要靠跨链来解决吧?
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Alex Bosworth 发表于2020-03-27 15:34:15

    Alex Bosworth:

    我为跨链交易开发了一种称为Submarine Swaps的东西。这种技术可以让你使用其他的链来填充或卸载你的闪电通道。

    Lightning绝对不是提供区块链替代方案的唯一解决方案,我确实希望有更多的解决方案,但Lightning是迄今为止最成熟和采用的解决方案,我预计它不会很快消失。

    Alex Bosworth 水手 回复春风正得意 发表于2020-03-27 11:44:07 嘉宾
    I developed something for cross-chain transactions called Submarine Swaps. This kind of technology could allow you to use other chains to refill or unload your Lightning channels.

    Lightning is definitely not the only solution for offering an alternative to the Blockchain and I do expect more solutions, but Lightning is by far the most mature and adopted solution and I don't anticipate it going away anytime soon.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Samson Mow 发表于2020-03-26 18:01:52

    Samson Mow:

    闪电网络是使用比特币作为零售支付手段的长期解决方案。大额支付仍将在链上进行,因为闪电网络钱包需要路由且容量有限。另外,闪电网络钱包是热钱包(线上的),所以你肯定不想带着大量的比特币到处走。闪电网络钱包可以这样理解:它是你随身携带的可以用来消费的钱包。你可能会把大多数现金存在银行里,也就是你的比特币钱包里。

    如果你指的是比特币和其他区块链之间的跨链,答案是否定的。我们可以有多个与比特币相通的侧链——例如液态网络(Liquid Network)。液态网络(Liquid Network)是为交易所之间的转账而设计的,但你也可以用它来进行大额支付。还有,最重要的是,你可以在液态网络(Liquid Network)上加上闪电网络!有了液态网络(Liquid Network),你可以发行资产,比如USDt,这些资产可以拥有自己的闪电网络,可以即时进行几乎免费的交易。

    Samson Mow 水手 回复春风正得意 发表于2020-03-26 18:00:35 嘉宾
    The LN is a long term solution for using Bitcoin as a means of retail payment. Large payments will still be conducted onchain because LN wallets need to route and have limited capacity. Also LN wallets are hot wallets (online) so you don’t want to walk around with large amounts of Bitcoin in them. The way to think of LN wallets is it’s the wallet you carry around with spending money. You will keep most of your cash in the bank probably, which would be your Bitcoin wallet.
    If you mean cross-chain between Bitcoin and other blockchains, the answer is no. We can have multiple sidechains that interoperate with Bitcoin - like the Liquid sidechain. The Liquid sidechain is designed for inter-exchange movement of coins, but you could also have a sidechain for large payments as well. Also, the big thing here is, you can actually have a LN on top of a sidechain like Liquid too! So with Liquid you can issue assets like USDt and those can have their own LNs for instant and nearly free transactions.
    AMA官方翻译小助手 船员 回复Pierre-Marie 发表于2020-03-26 17:03:31

    Pierre-Marie

    对于小额付款,LN是链上交易的长期替代方案。LN可以进行跨链支付,但我认为它们对整体容量没有用处。

    Pierre-Marie 水手 回复春风正得意 发表于2020-03-26 16:41:20 嘉宾
    It is a long-term alternative to on chain transactions for lower size payments. Cross-chain payments are possible with Lightning but I don’t think they are useful with regard to overall capacity.
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嘉宾介绍
Samson Mow

Blockstream CSO

缪永权(Samson Mow)是Blockstream(c-lightning开发团队)的首席战略官(Chief Strategy Officer),主要负责拓展国际市场,市场战略,以及产品开发。
Pierre-Marie

ACINQ CEO

Pierre-Marie是ACINQ(éclair开发团队)的CEO。
Alex Bosworth

Lightning Labs闪电网络基础架构负责人

Alex Bosworth是Lightning Labs的闪电网络基础架构负责人,同时是Yalls.org的首席执行官。
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